Anne Geary, founder of The Enneagram Approach, uses her gifts to combine systems for recovery, personality and personal growth, and discusses how the Enneagram can help people evolve into their better selves. Here’s my podcast interview with her on Nature Breakthroughs: Conversations with Changemakers in a World Gone Mad.
Ben: [00:00:00] Okay, so welcome, Anne Geary to Nature Breakthroughs.
Anne: [00:00:04] Thank you. It's nice to be here.
Ben: [00:00:06] How are you today?
Anne: [00:00:08] Good. How are you?
Ben: [00:00:10] I am good.
Anne: [00:00:12] Good. It's good to see you.
Ben: [00:00:14] Good to see you.
Anne: [00:00:15] Thank you.
Ben: [00:00:16] Tell me about the Enneagram Approach,
Anne: [00:00:19] The Enneagram Approach—well, you know, Ben, I always love to talk about the Enneagram and, you know, basically the Enneagram approach takes the Enneagram theory and combines it with the twelve steps of recovery.
[00:00:38] And together I'm taking theory of personality and potential and bringing it together with a very pragmatic process of transformation. So, in marrying these two, we can take some really beautiful ancient wisdom and put it into practice in a very pragmatic, practical way. So, that's what the Enneagram approach is.
Ben: [00:01:02] And the Enneagram—so this podcast is all about change, and the Enneagram, I don't know, I wish they had a better name for it, but it sounds so esoteric. What is that? It's about personality, right?
Anne: [00:01:16] Oh, yeah. I mean, the Enneagram is, you know, the Enneagram has really evolved over centuries of passing on ancient wisdom and there was a guy, you know, George Gurdjieff in the late Nineteenth Century, in the late 1800s, who brought the Enneagram to the U. S. And he taught it not as a personality system, but he taught it as really the process of change. And he brought together the Enneagram symbol, which is round with the triangle and then, the law of seven or the musical scale. And he believed that the circle represented unity. And the triangle represented the loft three, which everything is built on the law of three.
[00:02:05] We can't build anything with duality. So, we come together and we can start building with that structure. And then he brought in the law of seven, which creates a very dynamic process of change. So, he felt the Enneagram could describe any universal process.
Ben: [00:02:31] So, this sounds abstract. What, let's like try to make this more. Like one thing I know that I'm curious about is, well, there's nine personality styles, right, according to this theory. Here's a question that I have, which is your. You're you're. Can I say what I think your type is?
Anne: [00:02:51] Yeah.
Ben: [00:02:52] I think you're a seven, right?
Anne: [00:02:54] I'm a seven.
Ben: [00:02:55] And so, how, if I wanted to help a seven, what do I say to them?
Anne: [00:03:02] Alright, so let's—
Ben: [00:03:04] And this is like someone who probably wants help, but is also, you know, very smart and quick. And, you know, likes to, what's the word, likes to parry? Is that the word? Likes to—
Anne: [00:03:23] Yeah, so, well wait, let's back up. Let's help your listeners. Let's take them from the esoteric symbol. Okay. So, let's just talk history just for a second, and then we'll bring it to type.
[00:03:37] So, here's Gurdjieff in New York city teaching this beautiful universal process of change through dance. Right? Dance! And then there was this guy, Oscar Ichazo, who lived in Chile, who also studied from the same mystery schools. And he in Chile had this school called the Arica center in the sixties and he taught these systems to a psychiatrist from New York whose name was Claudio Naranjo, how, and as Claudio was learning the Enneagram from Ichazo—Ichazo taught it as a very spiritual system—Naranjo saw the patterns of nine personality types. And he saw the neuroses of each of the nine types. And Ichazo had taken Gurdjieff's system, and he had created nine personality types, but Naranjo saw how this information could be really helpful, to help people deal with their neuroses.
[00:04:49] So, he took the system to Esalen in the, I think in the seventies. And there was a man from Chicago who was on sabbatical. He was a Jesuit and he was exposed to this Enneagram as Naranjo described these nine personality types. And he took it back to Chicago and taught it to his Jesuits in the dining room, and then they taught it to their students. And before we knew it, the Enneagram was all over the United States and in Catholic churches.
[00:05:25] And then from there, there's been some really fabulous teachers who have developed the system. And so, now today, the Enneagram is a system. It's called a psycho-spiritual system, and it describes human consciousness. It actually gives us a map of human consciousness that describes the human being and the full spectrum from their highest and best self, their spiritual self, all the way to their shadow.
[00:05:59] And the Enneagram actually predicts patterns of thinking, feeling, and belief and behaving as well as extraordinary spiritual gifts that each of the nine types have. So, that's the framework that would be great to give your folks to start the conversation about the Enneagram. And we have nine types. And what Gurdjieff taught that was so profound is that human beings don't need to leave the world in order to become realized, that there's a Fourth Way to do this.
[00:06:41] And the Fourth Way is to do our transformational work, do our inner work, in the context of our ordinary lives. So, that was revolutionary in the early 1900s, because before that, if people wanted to be actualized, they went to monasteries or they became yogis.
[00:07:01] And so, Gurdjieff taught that there are three centers of intelligence, not just our mind, and that the work was to integrate all these centers of intelligence and said, you know, we have our head intelligence, which is where we process and hold information, but that our heart has a lot of information. And so, does our body. And Gurdjieff taught a lot about instincts and how the human being can work with their energy to be transformed in their personal reactivity.
[00:07:43] And so, the Enneagram describes nine patterns of ego patterns and it's very predictable. What people, what their gifts are, what their strengths are, their challenges, where they focus their attention, each type has a defense mechanism. So, it's really helpful in relationships, interpersonally. It's also helpful for coaches and spiritual directors and therapists and teachers—everyone.
[00:08:14] It's a great tool becoming very popular right now.
Ben: [00:08:20] And you are unique in the field, because you've joined it with another kind of established theory of change, which is like the twelve steps theory,
Anne: [00:08:33] Right, yeah.
Ben: [00:08:34] How do they fit together?
Anne: [00:08:37] Well, they really fit together beautifully. And I actually think that the founders of the twelve steps, Bill Wilson and the early founders in New York city, I think they were exposed to Gurdjieff's ideas.
[00:08:51] You know, if you look at the Enneagram symbol. It's round with a triangle. So, you know, you asked me how do the two systems combine? So, for those of you who have video, you can see the symbols. So, just real quickly, on the left is the symbol of the twelve steps, which is a circle and a triangle in the center and the steps describe pragmatic action steps.
[00:09:18] We're told if you take these steps, you'll have a spiritual awakening. And on the right is the Enneagram map. That's a circle with a triangle, but it has the Law of Seven. All those lines really reflect perpetual motion. So, the Enneagram represents a psycho-spiritual framework describing personality and potential.
[00:09:38] So, all I did was I took the theory and combined them. And so, I teach that, hey, we're all powerless over something. It's not just alcohol. We're powerless over a relationship we're addicted to, or family dysfunction. We're powerless over shopping. We're powerless over gambling. There's twelve steps everywhere, but I teach we're really powerless over our ego and our patterns of thinking, feeling, and behaving, and that until we can see how these patterns and repeating these patterns affect the quality of our life and take away from our relationship, we will never really change unless we want to. So, the twelve steps describe a very specific process of change.
[00:10:31] And the first is to admit we're powerless. Powerless over my personality, my patterns. And then I teach how to take an inventory of looking at our instinctual drives and how our instincts run our unconscious 24/7. And that's another area where the twelve steps and the Enneagram teachings blend. And then the next process is making amends, and that once we can see our ego structure and our patterns, we understand our behavior and our instinctual drives.
[00:11:11] And we move back into relationships with authenticity and we make amends. We change the way we relate to people. We become more real, more authentic, more empathetic, and it's really, you know, it's the Fourth Way. It's a way of living that Gurdjieff taught way back in the early 1900s. That was very revolutionary.
[00:11:32] I'm kind of bringing it back online in a more updated way.
Ben: [00:11:43] Can we give them a more specific example? Like—
Anne: [00:11:46] Sure! So there's nine personality types, so let's take your type, Type Eight, right? Eight! So, we look at the Eight as having this beautiful gift of strength and the capacity to empower others. And it's a really beautiful gift. And it said that somehow as a little kid, the Eight came to believe that, the powerful take advantage of the weak, and they don't want to be taken advantage of.
[00:12:18] So, they start take on a survival strategy of being in a position where they don't need to be protected by others, they stay in control and they protect others who can't protect themselves. It's a beautiful gift. Do you experience that in your life?
Ben: [00:12:42] Yeah.
Anne: [00:12:43] How do you experience that?
Ben: [00:12:47] I hate being told what to do.
Anne: [00:12:51] What happens when someone tells you what to do?
Ben: [00:12:54] I feel reactive.
Anne: [00:12:57] What does that look like?
Ben: [00:13:00] I usually do the opposite. I have to breathe, I have to take a breath.
[00:13:11] Yeah, it also looks like I avoid situations where I, well, let me put it this way: I tend to focus on, I try to put myself in situations where my own creativity can express itself. Because I feel, if I'm just, you know—like I don't do what you do. I don't teach the Enneagram per se, because it's somebody else's system. I use it, but I use it within another context that I've created. And so, it shows up in those kinds of ways. I also think I've always had a strong instinct to fight for the underdog.
[00:14:11] That's some of the ways it shows up.
Anne: [00:14:15] Yeah. So, they say, you know, they say that underneath it, some people have, some Eights have this really big energy. It's really beautiful, big energy that, when it's channeled, they can really empower other people and champion in them. But when it's not channeled properly, they can create a lot of havoc.
[00:14:44] A lot of—you know, you've told me actually, Ben—you've told me stories about professionally, how you've been traditionally in your career often called into corporations that were in transition or going through really tough times and you could go in and help them restructure the organization.
Ben: [00:15:07] Yeah. I did it in the nonprofit world more than the corporate world, but yeah. I tended to, in any organization that I worked at, you know, wherever I started, I ended up, I usually often ended up running the thing. That's how it kind of happened. And then sometimes I'd be brought in, to kind of save, turnaround the organization.
Anne: [00:15:37] Yeah, that's what I meant. Turnaround. They say Eights are really good at that. Taking a system that's broken and doing what it takes to make change. I mean, that must be why you're so good at what you're doing. You're kind of like a change agent, right? You really take what's broken and help people just take away what's not needed and get to the crux of it to make the system work again.
Ben: [00:16:12] That's what I'm dedicating myself to.
Anne: [00:16:16] Yeah. How's that going?
Ben: [00:16:23] You're turning this to me. Well—
Anne: [00:16:27] I interview for a living myself.
Ben: [00:16:29] I noticed you were—I saw you on my Facebook Live last night.
Anne: [00:16:34] You did?
Ben: [00:16:35] Were you on it?
Anne: [00:16:36] I was. You were live and I saw it, so I hopped on, and I saw what you are doing.
Ben: [00:16:44] So, how did it look?
Anne: [00:16:45] It looked great. You were having conversations with, or you were teaching people how to have a meaningful conversation and how to have empathy and to have a disagreement, but yet honor one another and to fully be present to one another and the disagreement and like, yeah. I mean, that's how we change, right?
Ben: [00:17:10] Yeah. You know, that's an interesting thing for me, how to create, how to do this kind of healing work, let's say, or change work, in the context, not just of a pandemic, but in the context of a global community that's hooked together online, which we've been forced to, to engage with more.
Anne: [00:17:28] Right.
Ben: [00:17:28] And, so I'm still experimenting with that stuff. So, but it's moving ahead, and, as you know, I'm going to start a new program focused on parents of transgender children, like I am. And so, I'm kind of excited about that, but nervous, because I haven't done it before, and I think I'm going to do it in a more freewheeling way.
[00:17:50] The Campfire City that you sat in was—that you observed—is, you know, a highly structured, five-part series. And, I think I'm going to do the new one where it's just more open ended.
Anne: [00:18:06] Yeah. I mean, we, you and I have talked about that. Yeah. So, just really you're developing or you're inviting people to engage in a really important conversation.
Ben: [00:18:21] Yeah. And it's about change, you know?
Anne: [00:18:24] Yeah.
Ben: [00:18:24] So, the last time we talked, you were so good at problem solving. You know, basically suggesting the idea that I, I work with that audience, and so I want you to solve, I want you to help me again since you're a seven, right?
Anne: [00:18:40] Yeah. Yeah.
Ben: [00:18:45] How would you go about helping another Seven?
Anne: [00:18:48] Oh. Oh, okay. So, if you have someone yeah. If you're working with someone, you mean? Yeah. So—
Ben: [00:18:56] If you wanted to continue with how you help an Eight. You can, but I'm interested in how you help a Seven.
Anne: [00:19:01] Alright, so, well, let's come up with a typical—let's just pretend that I need help.
[00:19:07] Okay. So, I come to you every once in a while, because I hit a place in my, you know, developing this model. I came to you several months ago, because I had a student who I trained and who was taking my original material and wanted to present it at a treatment center to recovering, to counselors who were working with people in the twelve steps of recovery.
[00:19:37] And I called you with a problem. And my problem was that I needed to have some type of licensing to protect my material. So, I called you, an Eight, because I knew that you were going to know how to protect me. And you did.
Ben: [00:19:54] To me, that is a highly functioning Seven using their knowledge of the Enneagram to know who could solve a particular business problem. What I'm asking is more like the seven that is caught in their personality trap that, you know, how do you get them to see that pattern and to—how do you get them? I mean, what I like about the Enneagram is it's not like Myers Briggs or some other personality systems that are buckets that people, just boxes to people fit in, but it's really, there are paths of development.
Anne: [00:20:35] Yeah. Yeah.
Ben: [00:20:36] And each personality style has kind of its own, I don't know if you called stereotypical, but it's got its own—for you, especially, the path is very clear.
Anne: [00:20:49] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so one thing I really struggle with is focus, because I have a gift of being innovative and I love new ideas. And when I'm not so healthy, I don't discriminate between taking in information, and I can lose focus and not finish my tasks.
[00:21:08] And I did get self-absorbed, because I get really excited about my ideas and I get in my head. And so.
Ben: [00:21:16] And you embrace them. And you love that. Right?
Anne: [00:21:18] I love it. It's like a high.
Ben: [00:21:20] That's the thing about the Sevens, they love it. And so, to get them off that high, it's not easy.
Anne: [00:21:27] No.
Ben: [00:21:28] Because it's their like life force.
Anne: [00:21:32] It's like a drug.
Ben: [00:21:33] Yeah.
Anne: [00:21:34] Yeah. You know, David Daniels who taught the Enneagram used to say that there were nine types of addictions and Sevens are addicted to ideas and we're junkies. And, you know, that Eights might be addicted to control. But yeah, so someone can help me sort through options or tell me to ground, but it's hard, because if someone wants to stop it, like, I don't want to stop unless I want to stop.
Ben: [00:22:03] So, that's the opening? Like what is it, when is it that you realize, how does it feel? Like how do you know something is wrong? Like when you're an addict, let's say, and you're getting high from something like ideas, which isn't like crack or something. There's no stigma associated with this problem.
[00:22:26] How does it occur to you something's wrong here?
Anne: [00:22:29] Like, I feel overwhelmed. I feel I get really overwhelmed. And, and then I start not getting things done. Or in a relationship, I might not really be present to another person because I'm in my head.
[00:22:50] Thinking about things or what's next.
Ben: [00:22:56] And how does that, like what's the ache? How does the ache feel when that happens?
Anne: [00:23:02] The ache?
Ben: [00:23:03] Well, I'm assuming when you feel overwhelmed that it's, you feel anxious, right? And when you feel that things don't get done, you might feel frustrated. If you're not present to others, you might feel disconnected or something, or, or you might feel bad that, that you just missed an opportunity or something? I mean, I don't know. How does it occur to you that things could be better? You know what I'm saying?
[00:23:29] There must be a feeling or a sensation? This might be a very Eight question.
Anne: [00:23:36] Yeah, no, I mean, I, you know, it all starts with overwhelmed. I get overwhelmed and that's, you know, that's when I know that I'm spending too much time in my head, I'm consuming too much information, and I have to pause and stop.
[00:23:57] I mean, you know, yeah. So, people who know me support me, they, they tell me to pause. They say, let's go for a walk. They help me get out of my head. Reassure me that I can live without my next workshop or my next, my next gig.
Ben: [00:24:21] So, if you were to put that more programmatically, what would you call it? Do you have like a stage for that?
Anne: [00:24:29] Stage?
Ben: [00:24:30] Yeah, like in your twelve steps or something?
Anne: [00:24:32] Yeah. Well, I'm powerless over my need to consume, consume anything, consume information, you know, the Seven ego structure wants more. There's a sense of, there's a core fear about being deprived and, I don't want to be deprived. So, I consume, I want what I want when I want it. When I'm stressed, right?
Ben: [00:24:58] And is there also a, is it typical for Sevens to want to go big, to have a big splash or to,
Anne: [00:25:08] Yeah.
Ben: [00:25:08] I know Sevens are always like into the next big thing, into the next thing.
Anne: [00:25:14] Yeah. I mean, I would say the gift of a Seven is potential, is seeing the potential in a situation to get an idea and expand the idea into a fuller way of expressing the idea.
[00:25:32] So, yes, we do like to go big. We like to dream. And yeah.
Ben: [00:25:43] Well you've helped me.
Anne: [00:25:46] Oh, well, yeah, I mean, yeah, the last time we talked, I did. That is what happened. I saw your potential and kind of helped you figure out a pathway to express it. It's very Seven, wanting to express their potential and wanting to help other people express their potential.
[00:26:11] And I see you as a person who has lived a very interesting life journey, between your, the stories you've told me about how you are a change agent and how you've helped these corporations change. And now you're taking all this wisdom and you're helping individuals change. And, you know, I know that you've been looking for a target audience and you know, when we talked about your life and your life experience, personally, going through supporting a child, who's going through a gender transition and it seemed natural to me that that would be a demographic of people that you have a lot to give from a personal experience from helping people change, of kind of leading the way kind of going through a jungle, finding the way. The path for people to move through this big change in life, and you could protect them and guide them with your innate gifts, but also your life experience.
[00:27:23] So, I wanted to see you marry those two things, and I'm really excited that you're doing it. I think it's going to be great.
Ben: [00:27:32] We'll see. I'm going to give it a shot starting soon in a couple of weeks.
[00:27:37] So, should we, do you want to go more around the dial, like talking about how other types go through this?
[00:27:44] One thing that I think is really interesting about what you're doing is like you said, you know, the origins, at least that we're aware of for the Enneagram, very much has to do with change and the Law of Seven.
[00:27:56] How would you explain what that is? The Law of Seven?
Anne: [00:27:59] Well, I mean, I explain it by saying the Law of Seven is like, it's perpetual motion. It's, you know, around the Enneagram, there are nine types. The law of change, it goes one, four, two, eight, five, seven, one, four, two, eight, five, seven. And so, it really represents human consciousness, this constant—so the only thing we can count on in life is constant change, but so the law of seven, represents the dynamism and the path of change.
Ben: [00:28:38] And that sequence is what you get when you divide one by seven?
Anne: [00:28:44] Right.
Ben: [00:28:46] And yeah, I just tested it on my calculator. First, I was thinking it's what happens when you divide one by nine, but it's one by seven.
Anne: [00:28:58] Okay.
Ben: [00:29:01] Yeah, but that sounds like, you know, it is numerology and it's very abstract, and I find the Law of Three is very easy for me to explain in that one can say that we, you know, we're like, well, I call it our first technology. It's like, we're programmed from, I don't know if it's birth or from before birth to make distinctions, you know? And so everything is a duality.
[00:29:26] It's either this or that. It's me or mommy, you know, subject, object.
Anne: [00:29:31] Right.
Ben: [00:29:31] And the thing is, as you mature, you realize that that's, that's a trap, that for every duality, positive and negative, there's always a third thing, a neutral, or both or neither. And in terms of spiritual work that's so—to me it represents freedom. You know, you escape the trap, you know, it's like, do I, don't I? Does she love me, doesn't she love me? You know, or do I go this way or that way? And it can be such a—it can drive people mad until you realize that there's a third way, you know, there's, it doesn't matter, or, a little bit of both or, you know what I mean? I get a great sense of peace. And like whenever, you know, I've been at the lowest points in my life—I mean, oftentimes it's because you've allowed your superego to trash yourself, you know? And, and when you listen to that voice, you realize it's all very negative commentary.
[00:30:31] And when in those situations, just replacing that with positive commentary, you know, it can work, but it also can feel a little fake. But for me, what really works is recognizing that it's all a construct, the positive and negative that there's always a third. There's always a whole, there's always more or either.
[00:30:50] And it's just like liberating.
[00:30:54] But when I try to describe the, the Law of Seven, you know, one, four, two, eight, five, seven, you know, like going through sequences like that, it gets so complicated. And you know, when you listen to how Gurdjieff describes it with the octaves and stuff, it's, I dunno, I can't, I've never, I haven't come up with a way that sticks. Do you know? I haven't come up with a way that I can feel the truth of it. I've written about it in my book, and I've explained all the different ways I've heard of how to explain it. But none of them have stuck. In fact, I ended up putting most of it into footnotes because it's all so complicated.
Anne: [00:31:35] Yeah. Well, you know, well, you just talked about the Law of Three. Let's, you know, it's really interesting. I've got a group of people right now I'm teaching, right? Teaching the Enneagram to. And, you know, I think that you can't really learn it unless you, unless we understand the Law of Three and learn how to see it in our day to day lives. And that's what is super cool because we're working on relationships, and they're all playing around with the law of three and how does it really manifest it in my life?
[00:32:12] And, you know, I see the Law of Three, you know, we have the, actually, I was just listening to Cynthia Bourgeault on YouTube last night. She's written a book on the Law of Three, and she describes it as, affirming, denying and reconciling. And she talks about, you know, the affirming is not necessarily positive, and the denying is not necessarily negative.
[00:32:40] It's just there, it's energy. And the affirming force goes towards and the denying force like stays neutral or goes away. And then the reconciling force is the force that comes in that balances all three. And she didn't describe it this way, but you can look at the, I believe that, that you could call the third force grace.
[00:33:06] So, if you have a duality, you have two opposing forces and there's no movement. The third force, we never know where it's going to come from. And it's usually the hidden force, but it's all energy, right? So, the third force unites the two dualities, creates something new, something unexpected, and then you move into the Law of Seven, because it starts what you thought was real before starts to change.
Ben: [00:33:38] I liked the idea of the shock points in the Law of Seven.
Anne: [00:33:45] Yeah.
Ben: [00:33:47] Do you have a good way of talking about that?
Anne: [00:33:50] Well, yeah, so,
Ben: [00:33:52] I mean, is that part of the twelve steps?
Anne: [00:33:55] Oh no. Well, it is, but I don't teach it. yeah, I mean, my God, your listeners are never going to get that. I mean, you know, the shock points are, you know, if you go, yeah, we can't talk about that without laying a better context. I mean, you know, the way I've heard the shock points are similar to the musical notes. So, if you have do is nine, re, mi and the shock point, it's—no, I can't explain it. I'm not even gonna try to explain it.
Ben: [00:34:39] I mean, for me, the shock points are—this is the thing that like the Law of Seven, I guess you can't talk about that in a podcast. It's years of studying to feel it. For me, the thing about the shock points is that I don't need to know all seven steps to get the idea that there are—well, basically there is no change without going through like an ordeal or like an, I mean the word, people use the phrase "awakening", you know, there's a kind of a, and it's a shock each time, you know?
[00:35:11] What's interesting about the Law of Seven is it's predictable or in a way, like it comes at a, there's a time and a place for it that's kind of in the system of the Law of Seven. But we don't have to talk about that!
Anne: [00:35:25] Sure. So, you know, I think the Enneagram is, you know, I just think it's a great tool for change because it predicts the way nine types of people are organized. And, you know, each type has gifts and each type has challenges.
Ben: [00:35:47] One of the things that really impressed me, you let me listen to a program of yours that was taped, and I forget what it was, but you had a—oh, for each type, you had this like brilliant little nugget of how each type was created. And it was just like a few sentences.
Anne: [00:36:06] Yeah.
Ben: [00:36:07] And I've never heard anyone say them so brilliantly.
Anne: [00:36:10] Oh, well I learned that from David Daniels. Do you want me to say them?
Ben: [00:36:14] Yeah.
Anne: [00:36:15] Yeah. So, let's start with type Eight, so is this what you're talking about? The little stories I tell that I tell.
Ben: [00:36:21] It was more like how they were created.
Anne: [00:36:24] Yeah, so the Eight child comes into the world as a spark of divinity. And I have this beautiful gift of strength and this quality of presence where they don't even have to say anything and they can empower other people. And the proposition goes that the Eighth child came to believe that the powerful take advantage of the weak. And so, with this belief system, they begin to form patterns in their brain at a very young age and the Eight will focus their attention on who's in charge.
[00:37:04] And can I trust this person? Is this person telling the truth? And the eight comes to believe that they can really. They can discern truth. And so, they focus their attention on who's in charge. If they don't like who's in charge, they take charge and that's a strength. They're natural born leaders. And at the same time, as they move into reactivity and the energy contracts, they can.
[00:37:29] Take too much control over a situation and it becomes a liability, especially in relationships. The eight energy can miss on the nuance, the more subtle or personal dynamics. But how we support Eights in our lives is by helping them make contact with their own subtlety, their own internal, sense of being, what's happening in their heart. What's happening in their mind, not just in their body.
[00:38:02] So, that's a story. And then the Nine child comes into the world with this beautiful gift of seeing the big picture and the capacity to hold a lot of unrelated parts without judgment. The higher quality can be called the unity or wholeness and the Nine as a child comes to believe that, the world is a really broken place and it's a lot to hold.
[00:38:29] And so, they focus their attention often on other people's opinions, other people's views, because they can see the big picture, and they want to hold it all. And they can hold it all. And, but while they're are holding other people's opinions and viewpoints without a lot of judgment, they forget themselves. And their strength is that they can hold all of this.
[00:38:56] But it's also the challenge because while they're holding everyone else, they forget themselves. So, we can and support those people by helping them to remember themselves, by helping them express their opinions, by asking them their opinion. Sometimes nines can feel that they're not very important or other people are more important than them.
[00:39:18] So, we have to support them in voicing, bringing themselves to the table, taking the right action, which is stepping up to the plate and being seen and heard.
[00:39:31] And so, then Type One. A Type One child comes into the world with this beautiful gift of, alignment or understanding balance and beauty and purity. Perfection.
[00:39:46] And somehow, they come to believe that. That the world is a really imperfect place. And in order to be loved and respected, that they need to be perfect themselves, that they need to be a good person. And so, as kids, their focus of attention goes out to what they can improve. They improve themselves and improve other people.
[00:40:10] And they're really, really good at it and they can overdo it and, they can become, you know, they're very efficient, but they can become rigid. Like they know the right thing to do. So, they are always doing the right thing, but as they move away from being in contact with themselves, they can overdo it, and they can be rigid and put people off and that might affect their relationships.
[00:40:36] So, the way back, the way we bring that person back, is by maybe sharing our own mistakes with them or helping them to have some more self-compassion. Ones are very often very, very hard on themselves. So, you know, each of the types comes into the world with these beautiful gifts and this ego structure that we have.
[00:40:58]We lose contact with that gift when we're really young. We're born into this world. Our parents have their own problems and our holding environment isn't perfect. We're not fed when we need to be fed or changed what we need to be changed. And, and it's really hard. And we lose contact with these beautiful parts of ourselves.
[00:41:19] And the theory is that the ego tries to mimic this quality. So, if I'm a Seven, and I came into this world with this quality of expansiveness and seeing potential and understanding that consciousness. And I lose contact with it, because my mother's depressed or my father's not there that I manufacture it.
[00:41:43] And so, personality is developed by ego, develops this personality by striving to express my own potential or seeking out a variety of experiences, so that I can express my potential. Or I want more, I want more, I want, I want, insatiable. And so, this ego—they say in the first four years of our life, that we put all these tracks into our brain, that four years old, we have all of our patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving for the rest of our lives set in and in place.
[00:42:20] And what's so beautiful about the Enneagram is it predicts these patterns and it predicts how we defend these patterns. I defend my pattern by reframing with a positive attitude, say, well, you know, I really don't care that I didn't finish something or I don't care that I lost a job because I didn't show up on time or I don't care that I've been on 20 trips this year.
[00:42:46] And I reframe things rather than actually feeling and experiencing the deeper pain of what it's like when I over-consume life, that I'm left dry, I'm left, hung up, hung up to dry, right? I've expended all my energy on things that might not mean anything to me. It might not be that important.
[00:43:10] And so, to support the Seven, you help us slow down. You help us see that the grass isn't greener anywhere else, and to be with our deeper feelings
[00:43:26] And the One, you know, the One, who wants to be perfect and make the world a better place to help them know that they don't need to be perfect to be loved, that they don't have to be right to be loved, that they could be, you know, help them open doors to be curious about, about how their sense of perfection, might not be the only way of looking at something. There might be a third force, a different way of seeing, to have curiosity.
[00:44:01] So, then the Two child comes into the world with a beautiful gift, a divine spark of- -and you know, all these gifts, they can really mirror Christianity, like the gifts of the Holy spirit. Right? You have many different gifts and each person has a particular gift, has access to all of them, but really has a particular gift that they're, that our life is. The purpose of our life is really learning how to express it for the betterment of humanity. But this ego structure keeps us stuck like rusty faucet. So, when we wake up to these patterns, it really helps us to move towards the light, the divine light. Right?
[00:44:46] And so, the Two has this capacity to love in a very special way. They create a holding environment. And they can hold people with just the right touch and whether it was nature or nurture, as children, Twos came to believe that there's not enough love in the world. So, they have this innate gift of love and touching people with that love.
[00:45:12] And they do that. And they're really good at it, but they can be too good at it. So, it becomes overused. So, sometimes Twos might have a lot of pride because of how this capacity to love other people. And they might overuse it for their benefit to feel lovable. They love, they use the gift too much in order to feel love rather than reaching very deep inside themselves and finding the eternal source of love lives within them.
[00:45:48] That there's an indwelling and rather than looking out to find love from other people by meeting other people's needs, they go inside and they look at their own needs. That's really hard for too. It's like that's the path. And so, supporting Twos, it's very important to ask them, what do you need? How do you take care of yourself. And many Twos when they're just waking up, they don't know what they need.
[00:46:16] They don't know how to take care of themselves What they need? They don't need anything. It's you that need! So, that's the journey for the Two. You know, we see a lot of nurses, a lot of people in the helping professions who just give of themselves tirelessly for the benefit of others. And they're really beautiful.
[00:46:37] They do it beautifully, but the trap is that they can wear themselves out by putting other people before themselves. We all overuse our gifts. You know the Eight—you—you know, you can overuse your power, right? It's a beautiful gift. You empower others. But you might overuse it.
[00:46:58] And so, Type Three has this beautiful gift of they're manifestors. They create value. The Three comes into the world not so much seeing what's possible, but by creating, creating what's possible. And the three is often called the archetype of the American dream. If you work hard enough, you can have, you can do anything if you put your mind to it. And they inspire others to do the same, but as a child, the three came to believe that in order to be loved and seen in the world, that they needed to be successful, that successful people are loved. And so, the Three has this innate capacity to manifest, and so they start manifesting for other people in order to be loved.
[00:47:49] And when they overuse this strength, they can be so busy that they can lose touch with their feelings and the relationships in their lives that are important to them. They might put work before relating.
[00:48:09] And so, the work for the three is to get in touch with just being, not doing. Just: I'm enough, I'm enough without being defined by my image of being a successful person.
[00:48:26] You know, each of the nine types has this preoccupation with how they're seen by other people. you know, we all have a way that we want other people to see us. And so, Three's like to be seen as successful and Eight wants to be seen as being strong. And Nine wants to be seen as a peaceful person. One wants to be seen as a good person. A Two wants to be seen as a loving person. Three wants to be seen as a successful person.
[00:48:53] And then, you know, Type Four, they're a heart type, a very tender, sensitive type. They come into the world with a gift of, really, you know, me being able to contact meaning and depth. And, you know, they lose contact with this essential quality that they embody, that they bring into the world. And they come to believe that that there is no meaning. That life has no meaning. And they come to believe that their job in the world is to bring meaning and to create meaning. And Fours are often very creative people because they have this deep well of contact with their own depth and the mystery of life. And they want to express that and often express it through their work and really having empathy for other people's feelings.
[00:49:55] But they can overuse it, that they can have too many feelings and they can overwhelm us with all their feelings. And so, the strength is that they create meaning through their art, their creativity, their feelings, but sometimes things don't always have to mean something. Sometimes what is just is. And sometimes things aren't beautiful and that's hard for them. The Four generally has a very exquisite sensibility to beauty, and they want to generate it and create it, the depth and beauty.
[00:50:30] So, we can support Fours by helping them appreciate what's ordinary in life. That the sunset, it's ordinary, but it's really extraordinary. And that being present to your experience as you're walking the trash out to the street could be a beautiful experience if you're completely present to that moment.
[00:50:59] And so, Type Five comes into the world with this spark of divinity, this, innate capacity to, you know, again understand, it's another deep type of clarity, of seeing, of seeing with clarity how things work. How it all works, how all the pieces of the puzzle fit together. And, but the Five child somehow, whether it's nature or nurture, they come to believe that the world asks a lot of me. And I don't want to give all the world asks, because there are other things I'm really interested in, and I don't want people intruding on my time and space of being able to enjoy this gift that I have to be able to take in information and synthesize it. And a lot of information! Compartmentalize it. Very often, Fives are identified with being very brilliant, because they love information. They collect information, they naturally can synthesize information. And so, the Five child wants to protect their time in order to have space to process and think and collect and archive data and ideas.
[00:52:37] They can take a lot of ideas that are pretty original or a lot of information and create really original—like, you know, Einstein was a Five—they're very inventive. They take all this unrelated information and create something that's new, and synthesize it. And so, the strength is they're good learners. They're fast learners, but they're challenged, because often they would rather—the being, intimacy, relationships aren't always clear. And so, being with things that aren't clear can be a challenge. So, the way we can help Fives is really giving them time to process. Often Fives need time to think about their feelings.
[00:53:25] They need time and space. We can reassure them that we'll give them the time and space that they need to feel the feelings that they have to process. So, bring us to Type Six, Six has come into the world with a spark of divinity, this beautiful gift of guidance. They're able to see out. They're able to see ahead.
[00:53:47] I think of the images for all these types. Like I think of Type Six as a lighthouse, just as strong lighthouse. It stands in the harbor where there's all this hazard around, and they're able to see out into the ocean and guide ships in, into the safety of the harbor. And so, Six, as they say, as a child, they come to believe that the world is a dangerous place. It's a hazardous place.
[00:54:16] You know, each of the nine types have these primary relationships with caretakers, and a lot of Sixes are said to have a childhood where there primary caretaker, might've been pretty inconsistent. One day. They were really nice and warm and the next day..., so they never know really what to expect.
[00:54:35] So, the Six has this gift of being able to see out into the future and kind of predict what's going to happen, or they want to predict, they're driven, their focus of attention goes out to what's going to happen. And so, the strength is that they can be great strategists. They can see ahead, they can be prepared.
[00:54:55] They have backup plans, but when this is overused, they can see hazard where hazard really isn't or be prepared or always see what might go wrong.
[00:55:08] And so, we can support the Sixes in our lives by helping them know that they don't always have to brace themselves and be prepared for the worst that might happen. That they can trust their inner sense. They can trust their own inner guidance and that they can go with the flow and that the flow won't take them into a ditch or into a hazardous river where they might drown. That if you let go and go with the flow, you can have a good ride.
[00:55:44] I'm in a relationship with a six and our dynamic is really interesting. You know, we've been together 30 years and you know, I've really taught him how to go with the flow and try to flow down the river. And he's really taught me how to, that my day doesn't have to be in the river every day, that, you know, that I can be prepared for rain or, make a plan for the future of something concrete and not always leave my options open.
[00:56:11] So, that's the Six, and then last but not least is the Seven. And Sevens come into the world with this gift of to bring into the world the capacity to see potential, express potential, to help people see their potential and express it. But somehow the Seven child comes to believe that the world and the people in it want to limit them or that they're limited.
[00:56:38] And so, their attention goes out to what's possible and they can be very innovative and very creative, and they see things differently. They don't want to see the things the same two days in a row. They want variety and interest. And this is a gift. You put a seven on a team and they're fabulous brainstormers. But they can overuse the brainstorming. They can overuse their creativity and not focus, not get things done. When you're on a team with a seven, you are ready to deliver the product. And the Seven says, "Oh man, I had a dream last night and there's a much better way to do this. Let's scrap this and do it a new way."
[00:57:16] And so, we can drive people crazy. And so, the way we can support Sevens is we can help them know when enough is enough. That the next thing is not going to be much better than the last thing. Just enjoy what's here now. What's here now is what's supposed to be here now and it's good enough.
[00:57:39] So, that's it. That's the tour of types, you know, there are nine types and each type comes into the world with a very beautiful gift and our ego takes us away from this gift. It tries to mimic the gift and it's like, we get stuck in our patterns. It's like a faucet that stops running in the flow. We get tight and that's our ego structure and the Enneagram teaches us.
[00:58:03] It's a psycho-spiritual system. So, it teaches us that, you know, we have this personality and we have this potential and the work is to be present to what is in each and every moment. And when we're reactive in a relationship, that that's a gift, because that gift can bring us down to our core fear. And it's through staying with our core fear, not hiding it, but making friends with it and embodying all this emotional and physical reactivity. That when we stay where we are and we're present, that something new can arise and that we can contact our potential and our gifts in any given moment with the breath, the breath of presence. And that we may be one type, but the reality is that when we learn how to be present, we have access to all nine types.
[00:59:01] That we can learn from one another and we can bring out the best in other people. We can we can see ourselves in all nine types, you know, whatever we don't like in someone else is what we're hiding in ourselves. So, the Enneagram helps reveal a lot of shadows. When we're in a relationship with someone we can't stand, it's like, uh oh, what is it that you're hiding from yourself? It's a wake up call. And the work to change, right? You're a change agent, but the only way to change is to stay in the flow. Right? How do you stay with a problem long enough to see it in a different way?
[00:59:50] That's it.
Ben: [00:59:51] That was amazing.
Anne: [00:59:53] Thank you.
Ben: [00:59:54] Thank you, Anne Geary,
Anne: [00:59:56] Thank you, Ben Goldman. You like those basic propositions, don't you? They're like bedtime stories, aren't they?
Ben: [01:00:03] They are like bedtime stories.
Anne: [01:00:06] You know, David Daniels developed those, and I teach them to my students. And I say that, you know, when you think of Christianity, and you think, you know, you think, God, you know, this guy Christ was 2000 years ago, and we're still talking about him. There are all these churches. It's still taught and the Bible and why? And it's because, you know, Jesus taught us universal truths, and he touched the soul of humanity. And I think the Enneagram does that. And I think that David Daniels, these little paragraphs, right? These little nuggets, what he calls the basic propositions, that they touch on universal truth about the how the ego structure is organized.
And I think that when we learn them, and we know them—that's why I love to teach them—we're able to transmit these universal truths to those people in our lives. And universal truths touch our soul. And when our soul is touched, it opens and it changes. And so, I love to teach them.
Ben: [01:01:22] That's beautiful.
Anne: [01:01:24] Thank you.
Ben: [01:01:26] Thank you, Anne. That was wonderful.
Anne: [01:01:29] It's been a great, great chat.
Ben: [01:01:31] We'll talk soon.
Anne: [01:01:32] Okay. Bye.